47 Comments »

1. Well, Bush’s grandfather WAS the banker to the NAZI party… Maybe he brought back some manuals?

   Comment by Mister Justin — 6/1/2007 @ 7:09 am

2. People love to compare the Bush Administration to the Nazis, but at least the Nazi Party had some concern for the average citizen (Aryan male ones anyway) — after all, it was at its heart a socialist workers’ party. Our current government is more comparable to Mussolini’s Italy. They were pure corporatists and fascists (which derives from the Italian word “fascii”, which were groups of business leaders initially formed to break strikes and fight socialism).

   Comment by Rob — 6/1/2007 @ 7:11 am

3. Thankfully it was a republican blogger who put this out.

   It’s so frustrating when people dismiss anti-torture positions as “liberal” with no other arguments.

   Decent treatment of other human beings is not concept which should be confined to a single political party

   Comment by David Kerman — 6/1/2007 @ 7:14 am

4. 2,

   Hitler H-A-T-E-D commies… It’s why he lost the war and opened the camps…

   Socialists CAN be corporatists too. So long as the corps are government owned. Or at least government mandated.

   Comment by Mister Justin — 6/1/2007 @ 7:16 am

5. #4, Hitler hated “commies” all right, but he also followed many socialist principles in running the country. He not want power in the hands of the wealthy, so although he allowed business owners and leaders to keep their property and positions, he essentially made them employees of the Nazi government, taking all their marching orders from above. And Hitler made sure workers were well taken care of, with huge public works projects to keep them employed, and guaranteed paid time off.

   Comment by Rob — 6/1/2007 @ 7:27 am

6. #5 Rob

   I think you are confused about what defines a “socialist” government.

   Comment by J — 6/1/2007 @ 7:33 am

7. 5,

   He may have had socialist leaning in terms of keeping the populace happy, but he was a fascist through and through. Merger of state and corporate power was his MO.

   Comment by Mister Justin — 6/1/2007 @ 7:37 am

8. Looks to me that they just want their boys to learn how thrilling it was to torture dark skinned folk and get a way with it just like they did in the mid 20th century.

   Comment by Angel H. Wong — 6/1/2007 @ 7:39 am

9. #6, no I’m very clear about what is a socialist government. A socialist government is any government not located in the USA, outside of California!

   ;-)

   Comment by Rob — 6/1/2007 @ 7:43 am

10. The Bush administration has already flip flopped on global warming and I suspect he will disavow torture before he leaves office.

    Comment by Billabong — 6/1/2007 @ 7:50 am

11. These endless comparisons to Bush’s America and Hitler’s Germany are as ridiculous as they are boring. Has anyone of you ever experienced more freedom in your lives than right now? Freedom of speech? Freedom to practice religion? Freedom to associate freely and travel? Anyone of you? How about the old guys? What about you Dvorak? If you hate George Bush, well good for you. Express yourself freely. Next time you get a chance vote for the Dems, But enough with the belly aching that your rights are being stolen when they clearly are only expanding.

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 7:53 am

12. Tom (#11),
    Expanding?!? I am no democrat but what Kool-Aid are you drinking?

    Comment by ethanol — 6/1/2007 @ 8:00 am

13. #11: I do vividly recall a time in my life when I had more freedoms; it was my entire life before the (un)Patriot Act passed. . . And I can find some recent Supreme Court cases that have eroded my rights due to justices Mr. GW Shrub placed on the bench. . .

    Comment by natefrog — 6/1/2007 @ 8:12 am

14. Ethanol, let me answer my own question, I have never witnessed so much freedom of speech in my life. A lot of this has been brought by technology-the internet, this blog, youtube, podcasting, skype, documentary film, cable television, satellite radio…If you have an idea, an argument, a complaint..you have never had an opportunity like you do now to protest, or agree, or be funny. This was not true in Hitler’s Germany. This is obvious and it is actually become boring to state otherwise.

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 8:24 am

15. #14: So what about freedom from religion? Or against unreasonable search and seizure? Or the right to land without the government seizing it for other private interests? Or the right to privacy? All of these things have suffered greatly over the past 6 years thanks to GW.

    Comment by natefrog — 6/1/2007 @ 8:31 am

16. Natefrog, I have no interest in defending Bush. If you hate him, good for you. But you obviously have no fear of stating so and that is my point. Your freedom of speech is complete. This wasn’t true even recently here in the US. But under the maligned Bush there is no fear to practice free speech. Again this was not the case in Hitler’s Germany, which is the comparison that I think is ridiculous. Just out of curiosity tell me how the Patriot Act has robbed you of your liberty? And if you could, be specific.

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 8:35 am

17. … I have never witnessed so much freedom of speech in my life. A lot of this has been brought by technology-the internet …
    ….you have never had an opportunity like you do now to protest, or agree, or be funny. …
    ….Your freedom of speech is complete. This wasn’t true even recently here in the US. But under the maligned Bush there is no fear to practice free speech. …

    Mr. Bush, you complete me!

    Comment by art — 6/1/2007 @ 8:45 am

18. #16: Hey, you were the one that said our rights are only “clearly expanding.” You defend what you said, too. You are aware that the freedom of speech isn’t our only right?

    How about this: National Security Letters, sneak and peak warrants, and secret warrants issued in secret courts which can’t be challenged. Hurray for my rights to privacy and against unreasonable searches!

    Comment by natefrog — 6/1/2007 @ 8:50 am

19. Natefrog, if someone is forcing you into a religion against your will…report him to the authorities at once. But if you are objecting to someone else’s freedom of speech because it is a topic that offends you…well you can’t have it both ways my friend. You either have free speech or you don’t. One thing that has occurred under the Bush presidency that reminds one of the Nazis is the high incidence of Public Speakers being shouted down, this was a common Nazi tactic before they took control of Germany. However the people using this tactic in the US have been from the left, not the government.

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 8:51 am

20. Open your eyes man, at the moment we still enjoy the freedoms, but if you cant see the erosion taking place you are either ignorant, in denial or not paying attention.

    Comment by mark — 6/1/2007 @ 8:54 am

21. #11 - Way to tow the party line Tom. More Bullshit from the right.

    The lines we can draw between present day US and Nazi Germany, or Stalin’s Russia, or Mussolini’s Italy are pretty clear and are reasonable arguments to make. And since we still do remain remarkably free despite the erosion of rights, it is our duty to be vocal about it.

    It’s true that we are not Nazi Germany. It’s true that we enjoy a great deal of freedom (although I’d argue that our unmentioned caste system makes some of us more free than others). It’s true too that there are many differences, protections and safeguards against tyranny, and that we could also draw parallels between the US and Churchhill’s England or Ancient Rome or whatever…

    And when you are rank and file right wing, I’m sure hearing a valid argument that you can’t see to agree with gets tiring… As it must if you are someone who is just to apathetic to engage in the political dialog. Also, the comparison isn’t always fair or relevant in every situation.

    But you just waste your time when you make the blanket, and largely ignorant, statement that your opposition is wrong without having anything to back it up with, and then claim that everything is peachy keen when the news has daily reports demonstrating clearly that it is not.

    We are not suggesting that Bush is rounding up some current scapegoat (Muslims perhaps) anaolgs to Jews and burning them alive in concentration camps. We are suggesting that Bush is taking steps in many policy initiatives similar to what we’ve seen in history being taken by tyrants and that the nationalistic conditions are right for us to be legitimately concerned about severe abuses of power (and in the absolutely worse case scenerio, a collapse of democracy).

    What’s your problem with that?

    Comment by OhForTheLoveOf — 6/1/2007 @ 8:57 am

22. #19 - Natefrog, if someone is forcing you into a religion against your will…report him to the authorities at once.

    In Indiana it is the authorities that are pushing their religion on us.

    Comment by OhForTheLoveOf — 6/1/2007 @ 9:03 am

23. Ohfortheloveof, thank you for your thoughful response. My challenge to you and all is to state to me how YOUR rights have been lost since whenever, I could care less about Bush. Clearly you feel your rights have been taken away. Tell me how. How is your life different now then it was before Bush, or the Patriot Act, or when the Boogey man took over your home town? I can make a comparison between anything two things and there would be a connection, Abraham Lincoln and cotton candy come to mind, but what’s the point?
    My blanket statement is you haven’t lost a shred of liberty, but I don’t know you, maybe you are repressed by the government. I am looking for concrete, not abstract. Nazi Germany was the high water mark for evil in the western world. I walk out my door in Bush’s “evil ” America and I see smiling, hard working people going about their business. Where’s the beef?

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 9:19 am

24. Where’s the beef?
    Comment by Tom

    Between your ears?

    J/P=?

    Comment by John Paradox — 6/1/2007 @ 9:28 am

25. I am guessing that all you guys are pretty young. That’s why I would love it the mighty Dvorak would step up and tell me how he has less freedom now then when he was young. Believe me,he has and we have 10 times more freedom now then say in 1950 or even 1970. Try being black in 1950, or being a woman at the work place in 1970, or being gay back in 1985. Hell, I used to have to where a bathing cap at the school pool and now no one does! I am asking for specifics, because there are no specifics. You guys are giving none because there are none. You hear that the RIAA is preventing you from downloading songs on your Zune and you think your rights are being violated. If you care about Liberty, Human Rights, the environment…sure you can whine about it, that’s your right. But why not do something about it?

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 9:36 am

26. Tom, have you not been paying attention to supreme court rulings these last few years?

    Comment by Matthew — 6/1/2007 @ 10:07 am

27. Matthew, I have payed attention to some supreme court rulings and others I have not payed attention to. I have read none of the decisions. I get them in 30 second bites via the media. How have these ruling affected you? Be specific. I keep asking the same thing because if you actually were denied your freedoms you would be very specific, it would stand out in your mind. And I probably would be on your side. At the same time throughout the world many people are denied basic rights and no one here seems all that concerned.

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 10:28 am

28. 25. You would be guessing wrong. I know for a fact OFTLO is early 40’s (sorry man), myself, early 50’s a veteran, well travelled and nowhere as naive as yourself.

    Comment by mark — 6/1/2007 @ 10:32 am

29. Tom, how about the right to get on a plane without showing ID?

    Comment by MikeN — 6/1/2007 @ 10:37 am

30. Tom, your argument is edging closer and closer to “if you aren’t doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear.” And we all know the fallacies inherent to that line of reasoning. . .

    Comment by natefrog — 6/1/2007 @ 10:43 am

31. Tom, I’m sorry, I don’t have time to hold your hand on this one. I can lead you in the right direction, but if you’ve not been paying attention that’s your problem. i.e. Your ignorance is not my problem.

    How about the fourth amendment, a recent ruling pertains directly to illegal warrants. The most recent and blatantly criminal ruling is about time limitations when an employer steals from you.

    That should get you started, go look those up and report back here for more support.

    Comment by Matthew — 6/1/2007 @ 10:45 am

32. To Mike N, thanks you are the first person here who gave me an example of how his rights have changed for the worse since…whenever. But while I’m sure people have gotten onto commercial flights without providing an id, that’s been standard procedure for a long time before the Patriot Act, but to some degree you are right.

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 11:00 am

33. To Matthew per #31…How silly. Which recent ruling? What is the case name? How has it affected you personally? We are a fair amount of people here. Can’t someone come up with a single abuse by this government that some of you feel is like Nazi Germany? Heck, even I can do that. How lame!

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 11:05 am

34. To Mark per #25. Sorry if I suggested you are younger than you actually are. That doesn’t happen to me too often anymore, I wish it did. You think I am naive because I don’t think today’s United States is anything like Nazi Germany? How does that make me naive? And as a veteran why would you say something like that?
    And since you are older, do you think you have less freedoms today or say in the 1970? Can you give me an example?

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 11:15 am

35. Natefrog, you stated:
    #11: I do vividly recall a time in my life when I had more freedoms; it was my entire life before the (un)Patriot Act passed. . . And I can find some recent Supreme Court cases that have eroded my rights due to justices Mr. GW Shrub placed on the bench. . .

    I ask you again, can you give just one example how YOUR life has been negatively effected by the Patriot Act, or a recent supreme court ruling. And how has that event made the US seem even remotely like Nazi Germany?

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 11:24 am

36. I know that a law has been passed that you will have to be cleared by Homeland Security in order to obtain employment. I know that sitting on my motorcycle at a stoplight last night, and looking up at the light and noticing a camera staring back at me and wondering what the person at the other end of that camera is thinking. I know that every time I go through Customs to go to and from my home in the Caribbean, I was profiled and have to be strip searched (this as a result of getting pissy at the ticket counter, years ago because I decided not to board my connecting flight, and chose to drive instead), I have personally witnessed the heavy handedness and a change in attitude of the police (and as an ex Federal Law enforcement officer, I know abuse of power when I spot it). I know that I have to go through forced roadblocks in NM and Colorado, present my papers, have a flashlight shined in my face with suspicion, this NEVER happened to me in the 1970’s. I also know that the mechanism to control is being put quietly into place, because people like yourself dont see a problem with it, it will make us “safer”. Well, it wont. It makes it all too easy for the power in control to abuse. Just wait until you get your National ID card, with a magnetec strip that will contain much of your personal information. It will be great, they will tie it directly into your bank account and you can use it as a credit card too. But dont worry, your “purchases” will not be monitored, because the government wont be interested in collecting data about you. And if you purchase that carton of cigarettes, that data wont be passed on to the insurance companies. This stuff isnt science fiction, it is in your immediate future.

    Comment by mark — 6/1/2007 @ 11:45 am

37. Tom: So you argue that if I haven’t had any rights taken away from me nor have experienced the effect of them personally, I shouldn’t be worried about other people losing their rights?

    And yes, I did provide some examples about warrants and secret courts. My right to privacy is in jeopardy because the government says it should be able to look at my library records to fight terrorism. And I can’t open bank accounts now without full background checks in the name of fighting terror.

    Comment by natefrog — 6/1/2007 @ 11:53 am

38. Mark, thank you for you sincere response.
    My only objection is your categorization of me. I am an American. If anyone compares my country to Nazi Germany, I defend. That’s all. From the moment that comparison is made, I disagree. Dvorak just does it to get hits, but those who commonly use this rhetorical tool should stop. It is a loser. But they are free to do so…and lose.
    Now I also stated that we are more free now than we were in the distant and even near past. And on the front of civil and social rights this is obviously true. So too on the technological front where people can communicate and express themselves in a hundred ways now, where once only CBS News and Walter Cronkite could. Travel too has opened up, not just (obviously behind what used to be the Iron Curtain) but to distant far off places one would only see in movies before, now people routinely vacation in places like Bali and Budapest. I doubt there is any sincere disagreement here. But there is the big Brother aspect that you have clearly stated. Everyone should be on guard, I agree with you. Concerning the National ID, how about just the SS # that really has already become the defacto National ID, no?

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 12:15 pm

39. #35 Since any use of the patriot act is classified so deep, we will never know about it, how could we know if our life has been negatively affected by the act, or abuses of government? How could we know if our phone has been tapped illegally, or if our library records have been combed? How can we know what exactly they are using this enormous amount of information about our lives for.

    Comment by Li — 6/1/2007 @ 12:22 pm

40. In fascist Germany, the Nazi used propaganda and fear to control the people, much the same as the neo Conservative right. Timid people went along to get along. If more people were to speak out against the fascists, just maybe they would have been able to derail the disaster that awaited. Its people who speak out before its too late that we would like to get to, including yourself. I agree it may be a bit of an exagerration to say we are headed to forced labor camps, total police state, etc.., But if will wake people up, then so be it. I love the internet and all the freedom of information it brings to us, I also believe that governments see this as a threat and something they need to get under their control. Like they have with mainstream media, and dont think they havent.

    Comment by mark — 6/1/2007 @ 12:31 pm

41. Natefrog, Mark has given some pretty strong evidence that his freedoms have eroded. He had an incident many years ago and now everytime he goes to the airport he gets stripped searched. That’s not good. I still don’t think it makes the US, Nazi Germany and that has been my main objection this entire thread.
    As for the library records, we’ve all been around the merry-go-round on that one. We know the government has been using library records for drug cases for years before the Patriot Act. And with the internet, who goes to the library anyway? And knowing who is wiring money over $10k is not a bad idea to stop the funding of terror, but I agree it is a limitation to freedom. And of course you can worry about anything you want to worry about-this isn’t Nazi Germany.

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 12:45 pm

42. #23 - Tom, I’m not used to being accused of thoughtfulness, so I’m not sure how I should react to that

    I’m 40… Around here, I’m in the middle. Are we freer now that in the 50s and 70s as you say… I suppose it depends on who you are. Am I freer? No. Am I repressed or oppressed? Honestly, not as such, not personally, at least, not so much so that I really notice.

    Actually. I’m pretty strapped by the dark side a what we like to call a free market economy. I have a full time corporate job. I wear a tie and everything. I live alone. I live very modestly. I don’t own a TV so I pay electric, 1 cell phone bill, 1 rather low car payment, and 1 ISP bill. I’m getting killed by the costs of my company paid health care. I pay more in health care costs each month than I pay in rent.

    I’m free. But if you and I are the same age, you will probably live 25 years longer than me (and I’m not making that up) because I am suffering more from poverty than from health issues. My company saves a lot of money by self-insuring and strictly controlling coverage. I think how smart and pragmatic the bosses are every time I see them leave work in their $100K cars and drive home to their million clam McMansions.

    Am I a class warrior? You’re goddamn right I am. I work three times as hard as I used to and get half as much for it. I want my economic freedom back. If life for regular people gets worse, I’ll have to start figuring out how to take what I need rather than earning it. Like Jean Valjean, what choice will I have?

    But we are likely talking about different kinds of freedom and different experiences, and when I say our rights are eroding, I also mean the rights of others that I have seen (through the media, that we have all seen)

    Police violence against citizens “seems” to be on the rise. Police can no longer be held liable for executing warrants on the wrong homes or on the right homes that house the wrong people. NRA folks will argue that gun registration is an infringement (and obviously that predates Bush).

    All these stories are reported in the major media. I’m not gonna footnote my memory. You know about the alleged drug dealing grandmother in Atlanta. It was blogged heavily here, what, about a month ago. I’m aware of high profile incidents of police killing innocent and non-threatening people (typically of color (an example of a group with apparently fewer rights than others as a result)) in Chicago, New York, Atlanta… and if you watch major headlines, you probably are to.

    Yes, I can go where I want. I can travel inside the lower 48 pretty effortlessly except by plane, and I am white and my van is modest and un-rusty, so I don’t typically get hassled by the cops for driving too close to rich people. That isn’t a freedom everyone has.

    Privacy. I can’t even get a telephone without having to worry that my phone records will just be handed out to whatever government agency feels like the 4th Amendment has been repealed.

    I’d like to own property near the downtown and have a home there. I sure hope a private bio-tech firm doesn’t decide they want to be there too. They’ll just pay off the city council to abuse the doctrine of eminent domain and take what is mine.

    Ask a small business owner if they feel like they are burdened by more regulation and red tape than ever before.

    Ask a parent what happened when they sent their kid to school with a few tablets of Tylenol because the child had some discomfort from a recent dental surgery.

    Often, more conservative folks will tell me about how free we all are. That’s very true for the straight an narrow who follow all the rules like a teacher’s pet. The status quo are quite free because they never want to do anything abnormal anyway.

    In Indiana, a recent dirvorce case resulted in a judge awarding joint custody of a son to a father on the condition that the father never expose him to “non-traditional” religious activity or risk losing custody. The father was Wiccan. Here’s the rub. So was the mother, and they had no disagreements over religion or custody.

    You might think the “In God We Trust” plates are no big deal, but then, you might be a Christian. I am not, and I don’t trust in God, and I don’t appreciate my money being used to promote Christianity by the state as is happening in Indiana.

    Our president has effectively suspended habeas corpus and operates prisons for people who might, maybe, we don’t know, be terrorists. We seem to champion torture now. This is all for a Crusade against a fundamentalist religion, Islam, being waged by fundamentalist Christians. I see what Christians do with power. What will they do with me once they are done with the Heretics? Maybe the same thing the Muslims would do to an infidel like me?

    We get talked to in short monosylabic sylables in the voise of arrogant adults scolding children. We used to be the richest nation on Earth with the highest standard of living and absolute mobility, and we were a beacon to the world. We used to lead the free world. Now we are just disrespected thugs and we appear to be preparing to treat our own citizens they way we’ve began treating others.

    Am I a free adult, free to make adult decisions and do adult things? If you think so, then lets share a toast. We can do that. But what if my vice of choice were marijuana, rather than the status quo choice of alcohol?

    Show me where off the grid is…

    Am I free? Pretty much, within reason, as long as I color inside the lines. But I can see the writing on the walls and I’d rather fight it now, than later when those comparrisons to Nazi Germany seem much more obvious to everyone.

    But how free are we? How many of us are afraid of the cops? How many are afraid of the government? How many feel powerless to affect change? How many feel disenfranchised, dissillusioned, disaffected, and dismissed?

    So… How free are we? How free are we going to be next year… a year after that… in five years… How free is fear?

    Comment by OhForTheLoveOf — 6/1/2007 @ 12:46 pm

43. Ohfortheloveof, wow. I am blown away by your response. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

    Comment by Tom — 6/1/2007 @ 1:11 pm

44. OFTLO - Very nice rant. Unfortunately we’ll have to bill you for the space you used in the blog. You can just send your payment to me.

    Comment by hhopper — 6/1/2007 @ 1:30 pm

45. OFTHO man your life seems to suck where do you live?

    Comment by KVolk — 6/1/2007 @ 1:33 pm

46. #42 - OFTLO - wow… eloquent and accurate. Thanks. And for those who don’t think the constant erosion of liberty has any consequences for the populace… geeze… go back to your Will & Grace reruns. Watching the news isn’t making any impression at all.

    John Mitchell, Nixon’s first AG, was right: “This country is going so far to the right you are not even going to recognise it,” He said that in 1972, I think.

    Comment by TJGeezer — 6/1/2007 @ 1:35 pm

47. the right is using fear and safety to make this a bad place to live, the left seems to enjoy paranoia and a chicken little the sky is falling philoshopy I wonder what would happen if people found as many good things to live for everyday as they do the negative. I guess that would be to hard since it is always easier to tear things down than it is to build them up.

    Comment by KVolk — 6/1/2007 @ 1:46 pm